for A Christian Response2/4/2006 c2 
2BlackPhoenixRising
uh...okay...look some of your arguments don't add up, some of your facts didn't match, though some of the other's (writer) didn't either: such as 3D- what have u never had a math/science class? there are four acknowledged planes- INCLUDING time- can't use that- also jesus has some pretty serious anger issues- and his suffering? hah! he just had a bad weekend- ever read stories about people who suffered for weeks, months, heck, YEARS, before they died! that's suffering...and the point about free choice? yeah- i mean, what if people have never even heard of god? does that automattically (sp?) make them sinners? and satan- he messed up- what happened to second chances? and all the good people who aren't 'good enough' - well they're better than the rest of us- so keep ur judgemental junk to yourself- have u even looked at other religions? oh and all that love & peace stuff in the bible? it's all about loving, praising, worshiping! god...pretty self-centered ain't the big man- oh and if he has a 'plan' well then he should at least give everyone a fair chance- 'cause little babies have no sin- and inherited sin has got to be the most unfair, illogical thing i've ever heard of- and a god being unfair, illogical- *gasp* yes, this is quite hate-filled (i s'pose) but ur biased...as am i...and as is the other person u completely chewed out- so leave us in peace, and we'll leave u in peace to actually read that bible of ur's...
2BlackPhoenixRisinguh...okay...look some of your arguments don't add up, some of your facts didn't match, though some of the other's (writer) didn't either: such as 3D- what have u never had a math/science class? there are four acknowledged planes- INCLUDING time- can't use that- also jesus has some pretty serious anger issues- and his suffering? hah! he just had a bad weekend- ever read stories about people who suffered for weeks, months, heck, YEARS, before they died! that's suffering...and the point about free choice? yeah- i mean, what if people have never even heard of god? does that automattically (sp?) make them sinners? and satan- he messed up- what happened to second chances? and all the good people who aren't 'good enough' - well they're better than the rest of us- so keep ur judgemental junk to yourself- have u even looked at other religions? oh and all that love & peace stuff in the bible? it's all about loving, praising, worshiping! god...pretty self-centered ain't the big man- oh and if he has a 'plan' well then he should at least give everyone a fair chance- 'cause little babies have no sin- and inherited sin has got to be the most unfair, illogical thing i've ever heard of- and a god being unfair, illogical- *gasp* yes, this is quite hate-filled (i s'pose) but ur biased...as am i...and as is the other person u completely chewed out- so leave us in peace, and we'll leave u in peace to actually read that bible of ur's...
11/26/2004 c2 7LJL
I must object to your comparison of mathematics to religion. You say that the only reason you know that three times three equals nine is because you were taught that, and later it was varified by teachers. If this is true, then you really need to start thinking for yourself. Times tables, and all mathematics thereafter, are verifiable in the real world. If you take two things, put two more things with those original two things, you get four things, don't you? Gasp! You just verified addition, all on your own! Now, this greater plan of your God's...I don't see it. How can you verify that? And don't give me that "have faith" stuff, either. Your attempts to compare verifiable real-world fact to something based entirely on "faith" is, quite frankly, offensive. Go ahead, believe what you want, but don't try and make it into a factual truth, because that's when you're saying that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Unless you were attempting, with this essay, to say that your religion is right and everyone else's is wrong...were you?
7LJLI must object to your comparison of mathematics to religion. You say that the only reason you know that three times three equals nine is because you were taught that, and later it was varified by teachers. If this is true, then you really need to start thinking for yourself. Times tables, and all mathematics thereafter, are verifiable in the real world. If you take two things, put two more things with those original two things, you get four things, don't you? Gasp! You just verified addition, all on your own! Now, this greater plan of your God's...I don't see it. How can you verify that? And don't give me that "have faith" stuff, either. Your attempts to compare verifiable real-world fact to something based entirely on "faith" is, quite frankly, offensive. Go ahead, believe what you want, but don't try and make it into a factual truth, because that's when you're saying that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Unless you were attempting, with this essay, to say that your religion is right and everyone else's is wrong...were you?
11/26/2004 c2 8Bryan T. Michaels
While I applaud your defense of your faith, I have a few objections to some of your points in this essay. (Some are not religious, but grammatical or otherwise unrelated to content.)
1. "There was once a time in human history where a belief in the Christian God was a 'duh' just like the blueness of the sky."
2. "It's so important in the Christian religion not to judge people on their fate after death." Half of Europe went off to kill Muslims in the Middle East sheerly because they had different beliefs and would "burn in hell" for their beliefs. So was it so important then "not to judge ... on their fate" post-mortem?
3. "Because Nature (a "catch-all" word that I stole from CS Lewis to denote the entire world, all her creatures, and all time constraints) ..." Many, many more people than C.S. Lewis use the word "nature" to describe all that. I've never read C.S. Lewis and I use "nature" in that way in all my works.
4. "Get that Taoist crap out of your mind." Based upon my interpretation of your previous comment ("It's so important in the Christian religion not to judge people on their fate after death.") and my education in the Christian religion ("If you're not Christian, you're going to hell!"), this comment about Taoism would be going against your own belief. Because Taoism is a religion, and this basic principle many of my fellow Christians-not only myself-were taught, "Taoist crap" would be condemnation of an entire religion based on their fate.
5. "I don't like to think of them as my 'identity'; and neither do you, if you stop to think about it. You try to cover up your faults around other people, don't you?" Personally, I am proud of everything I am. Even the pompous bastard, lustful man, and forsaken son (not in any way meant religiously) parts of my personality. Not everyone covers his/her faults. In fact, some celebrate their faults.
Again, I applaud your motivation to write such an essay. Feel free to smash any of my points.
8Bryan T. MichaelsWhile I applaud your defense of your faith, I have a few objections to some of your points in this essay. (Some are not religious, but grammatical or otherwise unrelated to content.)
1. "There was once a time in human history where a belief in the Christian God was a 'duh' just like the blueness of the sky."
2. "It's so important in the Christian religion not to judge people on their fate after death." Half of Europe went off to kill Muslims in the Middle East sheerly because they had different beliefs and would "burn in hell" for their beliefs. So was it so important then "not to judge ... on their fate" post-mortem?
3. "Because Nature (a "catch-all" word that I stole from CS Lewis to denote the entire world, all her creatures, and all time constraints) ..." Many, many more people than C.S. Lewis use the word "nature" to describe all that. I've never read C.S. Lewis and I use "nature" in that way in all my works.
4. "Get that Taoist crap out of your mind." Based upon my interpretation of your previous comment ("It's so important in the Christian religion not to judge people on their fate after death.") and my education in the Christian religion ("If you're not Christian, you're going to hell!"), this comment about Taoism would be going against your own belief. Because Taoism is a religion, and this basic principle many of my fellow Christians-not only myself-were taught, "Taoist crap" would be condemnation of an entire religion based on their fate.
5. "I don't like to think of them as my 'identity'; and neither do you, if you stop to think about it. You try to cover up your faults around other people, don't you?" Personally, I am proud of everything I am. Even the pompous bastard, lustful man, and forsaken son (not in any way meant religiously) parts of my personality. Not everyone covers his/her faults. In fact, some celebrate their faults.
Again, I applaud your motivation to write such an essay. Feel free to smash any of my points.
10/18/2003 c2 2Silver Lily22
This is a great essay. I just skimmed it over but I think you really have a great understanding of Christianity and the Bible. Though I am a Christian myself I wish I knew as much about these issues as you seem to.Keep writing and remember, God made you special and loves you very much. (I've taken to adding that to a lot of my reviews lately.)
-Silver Song
2Silver Lily22This is a great essay. I just skimmed it over but I think you really have a great understanding of Christianity and the Bible. Though I am a Christian myself I wish I knew as much about these issues as you seem to.Keep writing and remember, God made you special and loves you very much. (I've taken to adding that to a lot of my reviews lately.)
-Silver Song
10/13/2003 c2 21De Miles Justus
Ah! Another. Well done! (appluades fellow christian).
I found this to be interesting reading. Pay no attention to Alyx Bradford. I've had dealings with her in the past, and she can do nothing but be compleatly illogical. Upon looking more closely at her arguments, she certainly has a lot to say for a person who never says anything at all.
Let me add some insights from my years of apologetics study, if I may...
1) Math is considered PURE because it is used in terms of pure LOGIC. You were smart and ambitous to use it as an analogy, but you only seemed to touch lightly on its relevance. Math can be used to prove that truth is not RELATIVE. There is a difference between simply living and living well. Either the answer is there, wholly and completely, or it is not. The universe operates on the basis of logic (are you hearing me, Alyx)? There's much more to say about logic, but I suggest you take a course on it yourself.
2) Protogoras the sophist once wrote: Before God, everything is right and perfect and just. There are no flaws in His master plan. But man has supposed some things to be just, and others not. In my opinion, there's no such thing as a good person. Nothing we can do can change our nature, nor should we try to label others as worse or better than ourselves.
3) Free Will. Let me clear up this mess that was made. Now, I believe that it is absolutly true that sin cannot and does not exist in Heaven. God exists in all of his glory EVERYWHERE, but saying that evil is even allowed to be near where God is manifest is simply ludecrious. Free Will creates the POSSIBILITY for evil. Evil NEEDS good, as it is the exact opposite of the former. Good does not and will never need evil. We sin when we choose to, true, but that's because we're inherently reprobate and imperfect.
And finally, the best definition of sin that I've come across is that Sin is anything that leads you away or prevents you from being who God wants you to be.
Keep writing.
AGENT, eating his food for thought.
21De Miles JustusAh! Another. Well done! (appluades fellow christian).
I found this to be interesting reading. Pay no attention to Alyx Bradford. I've had dealings with her in the past, and she can do nothing but be compleatly illogical. Upon looking more closely at her arguments, she certainly has a lot to say for a person who never says anything at all.
Let me add some insights from my years of apologetics study, if I may...
1) Math is considered PURE because it is used in terms of pure LOGIC. You were smart and ambitous to use it as an analogy, but you only seemed to touch lightly on its relevance. Math can be used to prove that truth is not RELATIVE. There is a difference between simply living and living well. Either the answer is there, wholly and completely, or it is not. The universe operates on the basis of logic (are you hearing me, Alyx)? There's much more to say about logic, but I suggest you take a course on it yourself.
2) Protogoras the sophist once wrote: Before God, everything is right and perfect and just. There are no flaws in His master plan. But man has supposed some things to be just, and others not. In my opinion, there's no such thing as a good person. Nothing we can do can change our nature, nor should we try to label others as worse or better than ourselves.
3) Free Will. Let me clear up this mess that was made. Now, I believe that it is absolutly true that sin cannot and does not exist in Heaven. God exists in all of his glory EVERYWHERE, but saying that evil is even allowed to be near where God is manifest is simply ludecrious. Free Will creates the POSSIBILITY for evil. Evil NEEDS good, as it is the exact opposite of the former. Good does not and will never need evil. We sin when we choose to, true, but that's because we're inherently reprobate and imperfect.
And finally, the best definition of sin that I've come across is that Sin is anything that leads you away or prevents you from being who God wants you to be.
Keep writing.
AGENT, eating his food for thought.
10/9/2003 c2 Hail the Warrior
ABout time somebody did this! Good job Girl! Please read some of my poems, two are religous and one was written at church when I was mad. Your on my fav. list
ABout time somebody did this! Good job Girl! Please read some of my poems, two are religous and one was written at church when I was mad. Your on my fav. list
8/9/2003 c2 15Getuie
I've just read through this... and has God blessed you with insight or what? Um there's one thing I want to add... but this is something I heard so it's based on a view and not on a fact...
It's in referrance to your answer to "And Jesus died so that God didn't have to roast us all. Well, then why didn't He just NOT roast us? It's not that difficult to do, and what with Him being God and everything, it wouldn't exactly have been very hard to do."
God gives us a choice. Either believe in Him and live with Him, or don't. If we chose to not want to live with Him, then obviously we're going to go to a place where His glory isn't going to be... no wonder hell is so terrible... I think the reason it's so torturous is simply because it's the place God has pulled Himself out of... Why are demons so hideous? Oh yeah they can mask their true appearance and look beautiful, but it's not how they really look. I think that's also because they don't reflect the glory and beauty of God... the same idea about hell too...
The view might be beriddled with flaws and stuff... but it kinda helped me to understand the concept of it... *shrugs* Maybe it helps too... I don't know...
15GetuieI've just read through this... and has God blessed you with insight or what? Um there's one thing I want to add... but this is something I heard so it's based on a view and not on a fact...
It's in referrance to your answer to "And Jesus died so that God didn't have to roast us all. Well, then why didn't He just NOT roast us? It's not that difficult to do, and what with Him being God and everything, it wouldn't exactly have been very hard to do."
God gives us a choice. Either believe in Him and live with Him, or don't. If we chose to not want to live with Him, then obviously we're going to go to a place where His glory isn't going to be... no wonder hell is so terrible... I think the reason it's so torturous is simply because it's the place God has pulled Himself out of... Why are demons so hideous? Oh yeah they can mask their true appearance and look beautiful, but it's not how they really look. I think that's also because they don't reflect the glory and beauty of God... the same idea about hell too...
The view might be beriddled with flaws and stuff... but it kinda helped me to understand the concept of it... *shrugs* Maybe it helps too... I don't know...
6/25/2003 c1 Iarwain
A running review:
Well, Vana, you've gone about it in quite a different manner than I've thought of doing it. It is quite lengthy, and on that I congratulate you. You do go off on tangents (though you yourself acknowledge the fact) but/and they do make sense, if one can remember the central goal while reading them. As the girl Alyx says, though, it's never wise to use the Bible as a back up when making the case for Christianity. You'll notice that Lewis never once makes refrence to the Bible in Mere Christianity as a whole. I like the 1984 bit (2+2=5).
An explaination for Alyx about the need for perfection. Consider this: Bob is a good man. He gives to the poor, he loves his neighbors, but Bob has a flaw. He has a horrible temper. One night last month, he broke someone's nose because they bumped into him and caused him to drop a stack of papers. Now consider this. Bob dies one day. It was his time to go, he was 93 and had lived out his days. Now Bob is wating "at those pearly gates" and is awaiting entry to an ideal society without pain, suffering, or injustice. Of course, consider what would happen if Bob, a good man (with flaws), entered a perfect society and felt a slight twinge of annoyance at one of his fellows. BAM! down on the ground. There goes perfection, there goes the ideal society. Looking ahead to such an occurance, would you grant entrance to Bob? Of course, the Christian idea is very different, but this situation explains the idea of denial based on lack of perfection.
About the pilot illustration, I wouldn't call us "defective" creations. We are given a choice, God has given us a choice. If we choose incorrectly, that does not mean that our ability to make the choice was disabled, rather it says that we willed ourselves to be separate from the will of God, which is experienced fully in hell. To add to the number of refrences to C.S. Lewis books, I'd recommend a look at "Surprised by Joy", the story of his life and conversion. At one point, around the time of his famous discussion with J.R.R. Tolkien, Lewis is on a bus ride when he presents himself (or is presented) with a choice. At this point he is on the verge: yet a professed Atheist, but seeing God as a true possiblity.
"I became aware that I was holding something at bay, or shutting something out. Or, if you like, that I was wearing some stiff clothing, like corsets, or even a suit of armor, as if I were a lobster. I felt myself being, there and then, given a free choice. I could open the door or keep it shut; I could unbuckle the armor of keep t on. Neither choice was presented as a duty; no threat or promise was attached to either, though I knew that to open the door or to take off the corslet meant the incalculable. The choice appeared to be momentuous but it was also strangely unemotional. I chose to open, to unbuckle, to loosen the rein. I say, 'I choose', yet it did not really seem possible to do the opposite. On the other hand, I was aware of no motives. You could argue that I was not a free agent, but I am more inclined to think that this came nearer to being a perfectly free act than most that I have ever done. Necessity may not be the opposite of freedom, and perhaps a man is most free when, instead of producing motives. he could only say, 'I am what I do.' Then came the repercussion on the imaginate level. I felt as if I were a man of snow at long last beginning to melt. The melting was starting in my back - drip-drip and now presently trickly-trickle. I rather disliked the feeling. (Surprised by Joy 123)"
On the demensional analogy (which I love to ponder), many people consider the fourth demension (cube squared) to be time. Look at it this way. The 0 demension would be a point. Add to that an infinite number of points and you get the 1st demension, a line. Consider space for an infinite number of lines and you get a surface (it's popular to imagine a square), then think of an infinite number of surfaces and you get a body (again, a cube), finally imagine an infinite number of bodies (both possible and existing) and you get a motion. Of course, now we get into the idea and definition of motion, and what creates/allows motion. If you take yourself through the logic of what time itself is, we eventually realize that time = motion. Now I'm on a tangent... Anyway, I think you're right but I really can't hold it back when I've thought about something as much as time.
No free will in heaven, huh. Gleechumber failed to provide a congruent argument here. We already established that people are sent to hell because they have not qualified for heaven. This is the way Lewis explained it in "The Great Divorce". We live on earth for a very brief time, yet in that time we establish our choice for a path. We can see God and Christ as the Way, admit our sinful nature and repent, allowing Him to make us more and more like Him. Our earthly lives are merely to choose. They are the choice, and once they have finished our course is set and we head for salvation or damnation. Once we die, the path isn't over, it has just begun. The burden of choosing the path is gone, because we have already set ourselves into the exploration, and yet we remain ourselves for the duration of eternity.
Also, we really don't know about Lucifer's coup. There is very little written about the dark one in scripture. Most of what is concieved about him is from Milton.
I believe that's good enough until the next chapter (if there is one). Thanks for the essay, Vana!
Iarwain
A running review:
Well, Vana, you've gone about it in quite a different manner than I've thought of doing it. It is quite lengthy, and on that I congratulate you. You do go off on tangents (though you yourself acknowledge the fact) but/and they do make sense, if one can remember the central goal while reading them. As the girl Alyx says, though, it's never wise to use the Bible as a back up when making the case for Christianity. You'll notice that Lewis never once makes refrence to the Bible in Mere Christianity as a whole. I like the 1984 bit (2+2=5).
An explaination for Alyx about the need for perfection. Consider this: Bob is a good man. He gives to the poor, he loves his neighbors, but Bob has a flaw. He has a horrible temper. One night last month, he broke someone's nose because they bumped into him and caused him to drop a stack of papers. Now consider this. Bob dies one day. It was his time to go, he was 93 and had lived out his days. Now Bob is wating "at those pearly gates" and is awaiting entry to an ideal society without pain, suffering, or injustice. Of course, consider what would happen if Bob, a good man (with flaws), entered a perfect society and felt a slight twinge of annoyance at one of his fellows. BAM! down on the ground. There goes perfection, there goes the ideal society. Looking ahead to such an occurance, would you grant entrance to Bob? Of course, the Christian idea is very different, but this situation explains the idea of denial based on lack of perfection.
About the pilot illustration, I wouldn't call us "defective" creations. We are given a choice, God has given us a choice. If we choose incorrectly, that does not mean that our ability to make the choice was disabled, rather it says that we willed ourselves to be separate from the will of God, which is experienced fully in hell. To add to the number of refrences to C.S. Lewis books, I'd recommend a look at "Surprised by Joy", the story of his life and conversion. At one point, around the time of his famous discussion with J.R.R. Tolkien, Lewis is on a bus ride when he presents himself (or is presented) with a choice. At this point he is on the verge: yet a professed Atheist, but seeing God as a true possiblity.
"I became aware that I was holding something at bay, or shutting something out. Or, if you like, that I was wearing some stiff clothing, like corsets, or even a suit of armor, as if I were a lobster. I felt myself being, there and then, given a free choice. I could open the door or keep it shut; I could unbuckle the armor of keep t on. Neither choice was presented as a duty; no threat or promise was attached to either, though I knew that to open the door or to take off the corslet meant the incalculable. The choice appeared to be momentuous but it was also strangely unemotional. I chose to open, to unbuckle, to loosen the rein. I say, 'I choose', yet it did not really seem possible to do the opposite. On the other hand, I was aware of no motives. You could argue that I was not a free agent, but I am more inclined to think that this came nearer to being a perfectly free act than most that I have ever done. Necessity may not be the opposite of freedom, and perhaps a man is most free when, instead of producing motives. he could only say, 'I am what I do.' Then came the repercussion on the imaginate level. I felt as if I were a man of snow at long last beginning to melt. The melting was starting in my back - drip-drip and now presently trickly-trickle. I rather disliked the feeling. (Surprised by Joy 123)"
On the demensional analogy (which I love to ponder), many people consider the fourth demension (cube squared) to be time. Look at it this way. The 0 demension would be a point. Add to that an infinite number of points and you get the 1st demension, a line. Consider space for an infinite number of lines and you get a surface (it's popular to imagine a square), then think of an infinite number of surfaces and you get a body (again, a cube), finally imagine an infinite number of bodies (both possible and existing) and you get a motion. Of course, now we get into the idea and definition of motion, and what creates/allows motion. If you take yourself through the logic of what time itself is, we eventually realize that time = motion. Now I'm on a tangent... Anyway, I think you're right but I really can't hold it back when I've thought about something as much as time.
No free will in heaven, huh. Gleechumber failed to provide a congruent argument here. We already established that people are sent to hell because they have not qualified for heaven. This is the way Lewis explained it in "The Great Divorce". We live on earth for a very brief time, yet in that time we establish our choice for a path. We can see God and Christ as the Way, admit our sinful nature and repent, allowing Him to make us more and more like Him. Our earthly lives are merely to choose. They are the choice, and once they have finished our course is set and we head for salvation or damnation. Once we die, the path isn't over, it has just begun. The burden of choosing the path is gone, because we have already set ourselves into the exploration, and yet we remain ourselves for the duration of eternity.
Also, we really don't know about Lucifer's coup. There is very little written about the dark one in scripture. Most of what is concieved about him is from Milton.
I believe that's good enough until the next chapter (if there is one). Thanks for the essay, Vana!
Iarwain
6/24/2003 c2 17Serri
Now, here is someone who has absorbed C. S. Lewis! (He is a personal favorite of mine-have you tried his mentor-in spirit-Augustine?) Your grasp of Christian theology is solid on all points, though I would love to discuss a few of them with you, especially the discussions of Hell. By the way, you have just found another Christian writer (if you couldn't tell) and I've got something up about Heaven and Hell, if you'd like to take a look at it. Thanks for even thinking about all this stuff!
17SerriNow, here is someone who has absorbed C. S. Lewis! (He is a personal favorite of mine-have you tried his mentor-in spirit-Augustine?) Your grasp of Christian theology is solid on all points, though I would love to discuss a few of them with you, especially the discussions of Hell. By the way, you have just found another Christian writer (if you couldn't tell) and I've got something up about Heaven and Hell, if you'd like to take a look at it. Thanks for even thinking about all this stuff!
6/21/2003 c2 23Red Moon Kree
I read half of it so far and loved it. I'm putting this on my favorites and reading the rest later, but spectacular job, and it was the answer to all my questions. Great job. =)
23Red Moon KreeI read half of it so far and loved it. I'm putting this on my favorites and reading the rest later, but spectacular job, and it was the answer to all my questions. Great job. =)
6/20/2003 c2 2Star-Daughter
Just a note: please send your long-winded, you-suck-because-you're-a-Christian "reviews" to me via e-mail. Other than this one exception, "reviews" like the below will not be aknowledged and definately not taken into consideration for any future chapters. All they are doing is taking up space. You must like to hear yourself talk even more than I do. :)
Star-Daughter
2Star-DaughterJust a note: please send your long-winded, you-suck-because-you're-a-Christian "reviews" to me via e-mail. Other than this one exception, "reviews" like the below will not be aknowledged and definately not taken into consideration for any future chapters. All they are doing is taking up space. You must like to hear yourself talk even more than I do. :)
Star-Daughter
6/19/2003 c2 The Happy Neopian
Very very good. As a born again person it is great to find some truth on the web, however, I was dissapointed that when you talked about God's omniciensce, as an answer to the question about why didn't God just let us off the hook, you didn't adress the fact that God's holy justice wouldn't permit that. It's only when Christ's rightousness becomes ours that we are declared "off the hook" by God's standards. Also, I wish you would have had a gospel presentation in there. An enemy of God will never believe this. They can't. They hate God, and God hates them (Psalm 5:5).
His,
THN
Very very good. As a born again person it is great to find some truth on the web, however, I was dissapointed that when you talked about God's omniciensce, as an answer to the question about why didn't God just let us off the hook, you didn't adress the fact that God's holy justice wouldn't permit that. It's only when Christ's rightousness becomes ours that we are declared "off the hook" by God's standards. Also, I wish you would have had a gospel presentation in there. An enemy of God will never believe this. They can't. They hate God, and God hates them (Psalm 5:5).
His,
THN
6/19/2003 c2 58Alyx Bradford
First of all - sweet mercy, do you think that was quite long enough? Right, then, a point-by-point analysis should suffice, and as the essay was longer than it had any right to be, so shall this be, so I'm gonna go ahead and apologize in advance...
I laughed very hard at "you have reason to be uneasy." If I'm uneasy while reading this, it's only because the chicken I had for dinner was a little undercooked.
You've just compared your religion to something we all learn in the third grade. Isn't it a bit deeper than that?
The major flaw in your God/multiplication argument is that the multiplication tables can be proved true. God can't.
"So, I know that everything... Christian faith." ::cough cough:: Sorry, darling, but you can't use the Bible as evidence against those of us who don't believe it's true in the first place. You haven't proved your argument at all. Also, you don't address people like me who believe that everything happens for a reason, but not because God or the Bible said so.
Once again, God does not equal math. Math is inherently and demonstrably true. Religion is not. Isn't that the reason we have faith? Because we can't prove it's true beyond a shadow of a doubt? Or did I miss something? (By the way, I found the multiplication tables - if you'll excuse the expression - sinfully easy. Taught myself when I was six).
"Before you were a Christian, you were fighting alone. All alone." ::coughs again; peels off gloves:: Right. I'd like it registered that I am a professed /relapsa/. I used to be a Christian - and it was then that I felt alone. I've currently got a religion that works a lot better for me, I'm a lot happier, a lot more fulfilled spiritually, and a lot less alone.
Regarding who gets in to heaven and who doesn't: "Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." - Mark Twain
I'm rather fond of gravity, myself. I'd much rather be stuck to the earth than spiraling out of the atmosphere.
Your math analogies just keep getting worse.
"And, more importantly... life itself." That wasn't a question. Just so you know.
Because "our nature is so perverted?" Why, thank you, Hobbes. I've rather got more faith in humanity than you do, I think - some people are inherently good. Some are inherently bad. Most of us are somewhere in the middle. A god that couldn't understand that isn't worth the title.
By the way, I just though you'd like to know that Jesus being the "son of God" and being reborn through a woman who embodies both the qualities of Maiden and Mother is a totally pagan concept. Just fyi.
Right, I'm going to counter your Hobbes with Freud. Can't you trust people to develop a sense of morals without a father figure looking over their shoulders all the time? I'd like to think that, on the whole, humanity is more responsible than that.
Once again, using the Bible as evidence against non-Christians doesn't work.
I think if you do something bad, you feel awful afterwards because it was bad. Remorse, compassion, regret - these are human emotions. They're what make us real. Do you mean to say that atheists can't possibly feel regret or sorrow? Do they automatically have no morals just because their beliefs aren't yours? Because that's not only condescending but stupid.
Why do you have to be perfect to be good? You're not making that point clear at all. A person can be inherently good and still make mistakes. Because everyone does.
"You may want... from experience." My, someone's letting experience cloud judgment here. First rule in writing a persuasive essay - remove personal bias from the equation.
Alright, I had to take a break because I was just laughing so hard when you personified Nature (and made Her feminine), coming closer than you could possibly have realized to acknowleding the existence of countless pagan entities. Thank you.
If God knows what's going to happen before it does, what's the point of it happening at all? And if we're destined to go to hell for not believing in him, why are you wasting your breath trying to convince us to join your legions of intolerance?
"God already told..." Yeah, that whole paragraph. Alright, sugar, riddle me this: there's the Bible. Lots of people use it. There are several different versions. There are many more divisions of Christianity. Christianity's splintered off into more sects than (I'd be willing to bet) any other religion. So how are we supposed to know which one's right? Especially since very few people around today can read the original Greek and Aramaic that the Bible was first written in.
I know that man's imperfect. I know that without being Christian. Why are you telling me I'm less warranted than you to acknowledge that fact. I also don't need to admit there's a deity out there to admit that I don't know everything. I'm human. I'm not omniscient, I'm not omnipresent. But that doesn't mean I have to recognize the existence of a deity. (I happen to, by the way, but not for those reasons).
"And once you realize... comprehend." Now I'm really laughing. I question my Goddesses all the bloody time. Mostly because being deities doesn't make them perfect, either. And I know you're going to come back at me with the "why would you worship imperfect deities" argument. Well, I don't. Just because I acknowledge their existence and power doesn't mean I feel compelled to worship them. But I'm rare in that - rare pride, rare stubbornness, rare courage.
Regarding what you say about Heaven... "In Heaven, all the interesting people are missing." - Neitzche. I think the Christian Heaven must be fretfully dull.
"The sinful nature... the Deceiver." The Christian idea of sin is silly. The human body is inherently evil? Huh? The body is a physical, corporal form. How can it be inherently anything? The mind and soul are what define good or bad, as you'd have it.
::cracks up:: "Taoist crap"? Way to invalidate a major belief system in one fell swoop without any supporting evidence.
Alright, you just compared good and evil to a rusty car, and I'm laughing too hard to come up with an adequate response... oh, yes, I can. Nor can you have rust without oxygen. Because it's a chemical process, not a metaphysical theory.
I'm proud of my vices! They're what make me human, and I'm damn glad of it. I'm particularly fond of pride. In so many lives, it's the only thing that's kept me going. I never have understood why the Christians think it's so horrible.
"Again, I'm pulling the Christian card here." I counter with my +5/+5 Wall of Logic.
You wanted to poke your ears out hearing the multiplication tables. I want to poke my eyes out reading you reiterate the same paragraph again and again.
The god of the Old Testament is showier because he was heavily based on the Sumerian gods of the time. Religion at that time was brutal, an explanation for why bad things happened in the world, through human or natural means. It's a sociological thing, not a religious thing.
I accept that 1+1=2. I do not accept that your religion is the only way to live a good life and have a good afterlife. And look at that, I've just nullified your entire (poorly constructed) analogy.
Why do you need to repent perfectly? Isn't the effort worth anything? Again, this Christian obsession with perfection, rather than acceptance of the glorious faults which make us human.
You (via Lewis) compare love to teaching a child to write. Why on earth should we have to teach each other how to love? I should think that's the most basic emotion of all.
Ahem. In closing: I've educated myself in the Christian faith. I found it unappealing and lackluster. I've educated myself about other faiths, with similar results. I found one that worked for me. I think everyone should do the same. If it's Christianity, great. If it's not, great. But I really doubt this long-winded essay is going to persuade anyone.
Now, since I never criticize an opinion without critiquing the writing as well... you're actually a decent writer. No glaring grammatical or spelling errors, well-constructed, you follow up most of your points with - well, you must consider it evidence, and that's good enough for me. However, your analogies are ill-formed and extremely weak. You're very long-winded, you repeat yourself, and you talk at tangents too much to keep the reader's attention. You also fell victim to every logical fallacy in the book. I believe a shorter, more condensed version of all of this would better convey your purpose.
58Alyx BradfordFirst of all - sweet mercy, do you think that was quite long enough? Right, then, a point-by-point analysis should suffice, and as the essay was longer than it had any right to be, so shall this be, so I'm gonna go ahead and apologize in advance...
I laughed very hard at "you have reason to be uneasy." If I'm uneasy while reading this, it's only because the chicken I had for dinner was a little undercooked.
You've just compared your religion to something we all learn in the third grade. Isn't it a bit deeper than that?
The major flaw in your God/multiplication argument is that the multiplication tables can be proved true. God can't.
"So, I know that everything... Christian faith." ::cough cough:: Sorry, darling, but you can't use the Bible as evidence against those of us who don't believe it's true in the first place. You haven't proved your argument at all. Also, you don't address people like me who believe that everything happens for a reason, but not because God or the Bible said so.
Once again, God does not equal math. Math is inherently and demonstrably true. Religion is not. Isn't that the reason we have faith? Because we can't prove it's true beyond a shadow of a doubt? Or did I miss something? (By the way, I found the multiplication tables - if you'll excuse the expression - sinfully easy. Taught myself when I was six).
"Before you were a Christian, you were fighting alone. All alone." ::coughs again; peels off gloves:: Right. I'd like it registered that I am a professed /relapsa/. I used to be a Christian - and it was then that I felt alone. I've currently got a religion that works a lot better for me, I'm a lot happier, a lot more fulfilled spiritually, and a lot less alone.
Regarding who gets in to heaven and who doesn't: "Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." - Mark Twain
I'm rather fond of gravity, myself. I'd much rather be stuck to the earth than spiraling out of the atmosphere.
Your math analogies just keep getting worse.
"And, more importantly... life itself." That wasn't a question. Just so you know.
Because "our nature is so perverted?" Why, thank you, Hobbes. I've rather got more faith in humanity than you do, I think - some people are inherently good. Some are inherently bad. Most of us are somewhere in the middle. A god that couldn't understand that isn't worth the title.
By the way, I just though you'd like to know that Jesus being the "son of God" and being reborn through a woman who embodies both the qualities of Maiden and Mother is a totally pagan concept. Just fyi.
Right, I'm going to counter your Hobbes with Freud. Can't you trust people to develop a sense of morals without a father figure looking over their shoulders all the time? I'd like to think that, on the whole, humanity is more responsible than that.
Once again, using the Bible as evidence against non-Christians doesn't work.
I think if you do something bad, you feel awful afterwards because it was bad. Remorse, compassion, regret - these are human emotions. They're what make us real. Do you mean to say that atheists can't possibly feel regret or sorrow? Do they automatically have no morals just because their beliefs aren't yours? Because that's not only condescending but stupid.
Why do you have to be perfect to be good? You're not making that point clear at all. A person can be inherently good and still make mistakes. Because everyone does.
"You may want... from experience." My, someone's letting experience cloud judgment here. First rule in writing a persuasive essay - remove personal bias from the equation.
Alright, I had to take a break because I was just laughing so hard when you personified Nature (and made Her feminine), coming closer than you could possibly have realized to acknowleding the existence of countless pagan entities. Thank you.
If God knows what's going to happen before it does, what's the point of it happening at all? And if we're destined to go to hell for not believing in him, why are you wasting your breath trying to convince us to join your legions of intolerance?
"God already told..." Yeah, that whole paragraph. Alright, sugar, riddle me this: there's the Bible. Lots of people use it. There are several different versions. There are many more divisions of Christianity. Christianity's splintered off into more sects than (I'd be willing to bet) any other religion. So how are we supposed to know which one's right? Especially since very few people around today can read the original Greek and Aramaic that the Bible was first written in.
I know that man's imperfect. I know that without being Christian. Why are you telling me I'm less warranted than you to acknowledge that fact. I also don't need to admit there's a deity out there to admit that I don't know everything. I'm human. I'm not omniscient, I'm not omnipresent. But that doesn't mean I have to recognize the existence of a deity. (I happen to, by the way, but not for those reasons).
"And once you realize... comprehend." Now I'm really laughing. I question my Goddesses all the bloody time. Mostly because being deities doesn't make them perfect, either. And I know you're going to come back at me with the "why would you worship imperfect deities" argument. Well, I don't. Just because I acknowledge their existence and power doesn't mean I feel compelled to worship them. But I'm rare in that - rare pride, rare stubbornness, rare courage.
Regarding what you say about Heaven... "In Heaven, all the interesting people are missing." - Neitzche. I think the Christian Heaven must be fretfully dull.
"The sinful nature... the Deceiver." The Christian idea of sin is silly. The human body is inherently evil? Huh? The body is a physical, corporal form. How can it be inherently anything? The mind and soul are what define good or bad, as you'd have it.
::cracks up:: "Taoist crap"? Way to invalidate a major belief system in one fell swoop without any supporting evidence.
Alright, you just compared good and evil to a rusty car, and I'm laughing too hard to come up with an adequate response... oh, yes, I can. Nor can you have rust without oxygen. Because it's a chemical process, not a metaphysical theory.
I'm proud of my vices! They're what make me human, and I'm damn glad of it. I'm particularly fond of pride. In so many lives, it's the only thing that's kept me going. I never have understood why the Christians think it's so horrible.
"Again, I'm pulling the Christian card here." I counter with my +5/+5 Wall of Logic.
You wanted to poke your ears out hearing the multiplication tables. I want to poke my eyes out reading you reiterate the same paragraph again and again.
The god of the Old Testament is showier because he was heavily based on the Sumerian gods of the time. Religion at that time was brutal, an explanation for why bad things happened in the world, through human or natural means. It's a sociological thing, not a religious thing.
I accept that 1+1=2. I do not accept that your religion is the only way to live a good life and have a good afterlife. And look at that, I've just nullified your entire (poorly constructed) analogy.
Why do you need to repent perfectly? Isn't the effort worth anything? Again, this Christian obsession with perfection, rather than acceptance of the glorious faults which make us human.
You (via Lewis) compare love to teaching a child to write. Why on earth should we have to teach each other how to love? I should think that's the most basic emotion of all.
Ahem. In closing: I've educated myself in the Christian faith. I found it unappealing and lackluster. I've educated myself about other faiths, with similar results. I found one that worked for me. I think everyone should do the same. If it's Christianity, great. If it's not, great. But I really doubt this long-winded essay is going to persuade anyone.
Now, since I never criticize an opinion without critiquing the writing as well... you're actually a decent writer. No glaring grammatical or spelling errors, well-constructed, you follow up most of your points with - well, you must consider it evidence, and that's good enough for me. However, your analogies are ill-formed and extremely weak. You're very long-winded, you repeat yourself, and you talk at tangents too much to keep the reader's attention. You also fell victim to every logical fallacy in the book. I believe a shorter, more condensed version of all of this would better convey your purpose.