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10/17/2003 c9 Wildwolf
Wow, that saw short and to the point. And I agree fully. My best friend and I are boh atheist while our families are both religious, and we get grief from it. I have been told that I am lacking morals because of my beliefs, and that made me laugh later, because what sort of moral is it when you go to tell someone that?
10/17/2003 c9 220Namir Swiftpaw
I've tried to drill this into several ignornant fools heads on several occassions, but it usually ends up failing. Hopefully you will have more success.

I'm an atheist, and a lot of people I know have said that I was one of the nicest people they know. I follow no religion...but not having morals? Pfft. Morals didn't come with religion - they came from your parents, who taught you those things. One isn't born with a knowledge of right and wrong - until a child is disiplined for something, they will continue to do it without knowing that it's wrong.

...I don't have the time to ramble, or I would...but basically, I agree with you completely. Morals and religions are not co-dependent.

~Namir Swiftpaw
10/16/2003 c3 31Brone
This is really good and well-thought-out...my lil' essay lacked a conclusion and was more of a Halloween urban legend...OOps...the URL *did* get blocked...I'll update and see if I can fix that. Brill work.

~Brone
10/10/2003 c7 90The Zaniak
Ah. I see you've already disputed my unfounded claims. Bother.
10/10/2003 c5 The Zaniak
Normally I enjoy your essays a lot more than I enjoyed this one...it was still well written, but normally you check your facts. This one was full of "Blahblah, or whatever" or "Whooshmoo I think". Still good, but not as good...no offense and all.
9/25/2003 c1 No Trust
By the way, that was me. I'm used to using 'Zakkyurrdai' most other places. My apologies.
9/25/2003 c8 Tiefling again
Okay, so you're not against civil unions. My apologies. I don't think it was as clear before you edited it.

'Warped views of sexuality means condoning homosexuality just because their parents do it'? Kids with gay parents are, unlike you, speaking from an informed perspective on the subject. If they can see that their parents are good people who happen to be gay, then they will most likely 'condone homosexuality'. I didn't say you said they would be unhappy. I said that you were spouting uninformed opinions without a shred of evidence, which you were (and they are still in your essay).

As I said in my previous review, you ought to clarify in the body of the essay what you mean by 'normal' since it is not what your readers will expect and not doing so is being deliberately misleading.
9/25/2003 c8 Zakkyurrdai
"I never said they should be executed. Just penalized in some civil way."

Like what - fines? imprisonment? confiscation? But what if they resist arrest or having their assets forfeited, what happens then?

What you and most other people fail to understand is that all law comes back to deadly violence, and there is nothing sacred or special about it. Read The City of God; Augustine had a clear view of just what earthly rulers are - that is, the strongest gang of robbers in a given area - and just what very little good and what monstrous evil they can accomplish.

Realize that any time anyone suggests that something should be illegal it will ultimately be enforced by uniformed thugs with guns. Homosexuals sin against themselves and God; let God be their judge.
9/25/2003 c1 18Phoenix Ignition
To No Trust: I never said they should be executed. Just penalized in some civil way.

To Tiefling: Ah, you're making sense. Of course, I believe in God and Hell, but you were sensible about it.

I don't think I actually said I was against Civil Unions. I think I made it pretty clear that I didn't understand what they were exactly. And I said "without committing", not "without marrying in a church". Namir Swiftpaw made it sound like civil unions weren't committed. And no, I didn't expect you to know this. I can't remember what I was thinking when I said that, but I never said they shouldn't be allowed.

Whether I'm right or wrong, I'm forfeiting the 'Normal' arguement because it's ultimately pointless and irrelevant, and because none of us are actually 'wrong'.

Warped Views Of Sexuality means Condoning Homosexuality simply because their parents do it. And yes, I know that's not your definition of Warped. And again, I didn't say they would be unhappy.

To Namir Swiftpaw: By all means, write another one. Keep the debate going.
9/24/2003 c8 15No Trust
“I know Fallingofftheworld wasn't by any means suggesting that homosexuals should be executed, but this meaning creep he encourages furthers the spread of misinformation and discrimination. A Christian should be against such things.”

If Fallingofftheworld is of the particular (apostate) persuasion I think he is, he believes that homosexuals should not be out and out executed *unless they are caught committing homosexual acts*.

I’ve said before that I think homosexuality is sinful, but as a vice, not a crime. People who engage in sodomy are harming themselves, but unless they’re committing rape they’re not violating anyone. To say that the government should be involved in policing something extremely private, like consensual sexual activity, is not only immoral but untenable unless you want the government’s sickly tentacles in everything. And I mean everything.
9/21/2003 c7 Tiefling
Fallingofftheworld: Raekwon fielded part of your response nicely for me. I'll tell you what I think again anyway, though.

I simply do not believe in your God, so there really isn't any point in banging on at me (or any other non-Christian) about Hell. If your God existed, and Hell existed then no, they wouldn't suddenly cease to exist simply because I didn't believe in them, but by the since they don't, they won't suddenly spring into being just because you do believe in them. I know I've said all that before, but you just don't seem to get it.

For the same reason, there's no point talking to me about sin. It's a religious term. What some people believe is sinful, others don't.

Interesting question about jk89- maybe I'll ask her. In any case, there's no rule against using people's reviews in essays here.

Whether God 'made people gay' or simply 'allowed it to happen', expecting gays to be celibate for life, when heterosexuals don't have to be, is extremely unfair. Why should only some people be allowed loving relationships?

'You already know that I don't have a problem with marriage outside the Church'

What? How would I 'know'this? You actually said you were against civil unions, which are marriages outside a church. You said they 'shouldn't be allowed'. You're being very inconsistant.

You've come up with yet another new definition of normal. Make up your mind! Normal *doesn't* mean the way things *should* be, it means the way they normally (usually, typically) *are*. It's *descriptive*, not prescriptive.

You're still spouting uniformed ideas about what will 'probably' happen to children of same sex relationships, and you *still* don't provide a shred of evidence to support your views there.

The Bible is completely irrelevant to me, as it as to the many millions of other people who don't choose to live their life by it.
9/21/2003 c7 220Namir Swiftpaw
So...many gay essays now...o_o

Fallingofftheworld's rebutal of my essay really pissed me off, and it warms my heart to see you retaliate against it. I was planning on writing my own follow up essay (I still plan on doing this, actually) on about what it's like to grow up with homosexual parents, and the like...

Man. My essay has caused some problems, no? I really had no idea until two days ago.

=) You make me happy, though...gay IS okay!

~Namir Swiftpaw
9/21/2003 c1 Raekwon the Kid
Fallingofftheworld:

I know this response is for Tiefling, but I just had to jump on this one.

"Seperation of Church and State sounds good to most people, but I don't think many of those people actually consider that God doesn't endorse that seperation. And whether or not you believe in God doesn't change the fact that he exists. And not believing in Heaven and Hell doesn't change the fact that everyone-Buddhists, Atheists, Wiccans, Agnostics, and even people who claim to be Christians and go to church every sunday and tithe and live perfectly moral lives-will be judged, whether they believe it or not."

This would be a good point to make if everyone you're talking to is Christian. However, since this isn't the case, you can't exactly make this argument any more valid than the ones you used in your essay. Not everyone believes in God, so the references to Heaven and Hell don't do you much good. Base your arguments on something else.

"Oh, it does harm people. Maybe not immediately, but all sin will eventually harm someone else. Oh, and remember that you're also sinning against yourself, and your partner. So I suppose it is immediate."

Simply a matter of opinion. No one can honestly stand up and say that homosexuality is/is not defineitely a sin; we can believe, but we don't know. Thus, it wouldn't be in your best interests to say that it harms people, because you don't know, but only believe.

" As I've said to about a hundred people before, I didn't actually say that the child wouldn't be well-adjusted or whatever. But no matter how happy the child is, they will most likely have warped views on homosexuality, and maybe even sex in general."

And you got your degree in Child Psychology fro what college? You don't know that for sure, so you're certainly not qualified to make such a bold (and consequently, untrue) statement. Some of my friends (who happen to be raised in same-sex households) are happy and don't have warped views of sex or homosexuality at all.

"Normal, to many people (not just Christians) means 'How it's supposed to be'. Suppose some horrid disease was spreading. Death at eighty is normal. But death at twenty isn't, even if eeveryone was getting that disease and everyone was destined for it. But nonetheless, it really doesn't matter. Just replace the word 'normal' with 'the way it's supposed to be'."

The point is that there is no definite definition of "normal" anymore. With so many different kinds of people, "normal" means many things to many people.

"Oh, there is such a thing as 'legal seperation'. You don't have to divorce to get away from each other. And as for all the Christians who condone divorce and/or divorce and remarriage, they're wrong, and that doesn't change whether it's sin or not."

Actually, the Bible says that you can divorce if adultery applies to the situation. Oh yeah, your judgmental side is showing; *that* is a sin, too. Just read Matthew 7:1.

Peace,

Raekwon
9/21/2003 c7 18Phoenix Ignition
I've had a lot of reviews to respond to (83 to be exact, although I don't respond to them all) so I couldn't get around to this one soon enough.

Seperation of Church and State sounds good to most people, but I don't think many of those people actually consider that God doesn't endorse that seperation. And whether or not you believe in God doesn't change the fact that he exists. And not believing in Heaven and Hell doesn't change the fact that everyone-Buddhists, Atheists, Wiccans, Agnostics, and even people who claim to be Christians and go to church every sunday and tithe and live perfectly moral lives-will be judged, whether they believe it or not.

Maybe it is persecution, and maybe it's not. And if it is, then I suppose some persecution is necessary.

Oh, it does harm people. Maybe not immediately, but all sin will eventually harm someone else. Oh, and remember that you're also sinning against yourself, and your partner. So I suppose it is immediate.

I wonder what jk-89 would think if she knew her review was being posted all over the website?

I'll concede that having 'gay tendencies' can be part of God's plan (temptation makes you stronger, heh). I corrected that in my essay. But acting on it is certainly not.

But that doesn't mean God 'made' them gay. Just because God allows something to happen doesn't mean he made it happen. And God doesn't actually tempt people.

I suppose that answered the "choice homosexuals are give; between abstaining from ever seeking the love of a person of their choosing and burning in Hell for eternity" issue.

You already know that I don't have a problem with a marriage outside of a church. What if every church burned down? The human race couldn't go on without premarital sex.

Even if I was an atheist I probably wouldn't have a huge problem with getting married at a church, though. But that's not relevant.

As I've said to about a hundred people before, I didn't actually say that the child wouldn't be well-adjusted or whatever. But no matter how happy the child is, they will most likely have warped views on homosexuality, and maybe even sex in general.

Normal, to many people (not just Christians) means 'How it's supposed to be'. Suppose some horrid disease was spreading. Death at eighty is normal. But death at twenty isn't, even if eeveryone was getting that disease and everyone was destined for it. But nonetheless, it really doesn't matter. Just replace the word 'normal' with 'the way it's supposed to be'.

Oh, there is such a thing as 'legal seperation'. You don't have to divorce to get away from each other. And as for all the Christians who condone divorce and/or divorce and remarriage, they're wrong, and that doesn't change whether it's sin or not.

Oh, and this is my last argument:

The Bible is certainly *-\NOT/-* irrelevant. Whether you're pagan, jewish, or even atheist, it is TRUE. And it APPLIES to everyone.
9/18/2003 c4 Le Creature
"Though I said earlier that Christians can do whatever they want within their own institution, and would oppose any kind of legislation which interfered with church policy, I firmly believe that churches deserve public censure if they allow this sort of thing. "

"public censure" is peculiar word choice. On the subject, though, parents who hear such things from priests might want, "a second opinion."
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