for Patriarchal Female12/16/2012 c1 Roze
I don't agree with your last paragraph. Men are not always on top or the most powerful. Maybe many of them do go about their daily lives ignorant of the basic struggles of women, but men have struggles of their own and EVERYONE - feminist or otherwise, seems to ignore that.
Men are just as limited and restricted in our very gender delineated society as women are. Men have to uphold a certain level of masculinity as defined by our modern society or face societal punishment. Not muscular - you're a wimp. Not into sports - you're a weakling or a nerd. Not into talking about sexual conquests and would rather empathize as a human being - oh sorry, now you're a fag.
Men are expected to be successful or be the breadwinners of their households. When they're not, society looks down on them - they become a bum, a loser, something's obviously wrong with a male who would rather stay at home with his kids and let his wife go out and be the big bad woman that she is.
So, feminist or not, this is the society that WE perpetuate. Because WE all hold everyone, including men, to ridiculous standards of what's masculine and feminine. What's accepted or not.
Everyone ignores the men these days. I may be a woman. But I am for equal treatment of everyone and to do that you cant ignore the struggles of men in favor of only the struggles of women.
I don't agree with your last paragraph. Men are not always on top or the most powerful. Maybe many of them do go about their daily lives ignorant of the basic struggles of women, but men have struggles of their own and EVERYONE - feminist or otherwise, seems to ignore that.
Men are just as limited and restricted in our very gender delineated society as women are. Men have to uphold a certain level of masculinity as defined by our modern society or face societal punishment. Not muscular - you're a wimp. Not into sports - you're a weakling or a nerd. Not into talking about sexual conquests and would rather empathize as a human being - oh sorry, now you're a fag.
Men are expected to be successful or be the breadwinners of their households. When they're not, society looks down on them - they become a bum, a loser, something's obviously wrong with a male who would rather stay at home with his kids and let his wife go out and be the big bad woman that she is.
So, feminist or not, this is the society that WE perpetuate. Because WE all hold everyone, including men, to ridiculous standards of what's masculine and feminine. What's accepted or not.
Everyone ignores the men these days. I may be a woman. But I am for equal treatment of everyone and to do that you cant ignore the struggles of men in favor of only the struggles of women.
3/16/2012 c1 
8Marginal Shakespeare
While I firmly believe that plenty of women have legitimate reasons to have anti-men rallies because of the heinous way they are treated by the men in their lives, I also believe it's not the best course of action or one that really falls into many definitions of feminism.
Feminism, in my definition at least, seeks to end all oppression. It does not seek to put men beneath the feet of women the same way men have put women below them. Feminism seeks to change systems of patriarchy that make it impossible for women to rise up to the level of men as well as destroy the systems that oppress other groups.
I, personally, do not know a single feminist that truly believes that "girls are better than boys". Feminism seeks to end sexism that hurts us all. If you're a white hetero male, you're impacted by sexism and not always for the better. Yes, sexism rises you above other races, sexes, and orientations, but only in a strict box. If you're not a stereotypical man (strong, aggressive, smart, logical) then you're below those type of men. You're mocked, beaten up, kept down in a similar fashion to women.
While I can understand where you would get some of these notions because I know that there are people who call themselves feminists and act in the ways that you're talking about, it's important not to stereotype when arguing about something like feminism. I also agree with the other posts about your flip-flop at the end and lack of any relevant sources.
If you're going to argue a point, have some support for it, otherwise it's just you ranting/throwing around your opinion.
8Marginal ShakespeareWhile I firmly believe that plenty of women have legitimate reasons to have anti-men rallies because of the heinous way they are treated by the men in their lives, I also believe it's not the best course of action or one that really falls into many definitions of feminism.
Feminism, in my definition at least, seeks to end all oppression. It does not seek to put men beneath the feet of women the same way men have put women below them. Feminism seeks to change systems of patriarchy that make it impossible for women to rise up to the level of men as well as destroy the systems that oppress other groups.
I, personally, do not know a single feminist that truly believes that "girls are better than boys". Feminism seeks to end sexism that hurts us all. If you're a white hetero male, you're impacted by sexism and not always for the better. Yes, sexism rises you above other races, sexes, and orientations, but only in a strict box. If you're not a stereotypical man (strong, aggressive, smart, logical) then you're below those type of men. You're mocked, beaten up, kept down in a similar fashion to women.
While I can understand where you would get some of these notions because I know that there are people who call themselves feminists and act in the ways that you're talking about, it's important not to stereotype when arguing about something like feminism. I also agree with the other posts about your flip-flop at the end and lack of any relevant sources.
If you're going to argue a point, have some support for it, otherwise it's just you ranting/throwing around your opinion.
2/19/2004 c1 27aspenjerome
You've got some rough ideas working for you here. Basically, your flip-flop at the end is an entirely different issue. If men have it better than women, I don't think it's an offshoot of feminism. Secondly, I don't think you show very well how feminism affects our everyday lives. There aren't a bunch of militant women out there with burning bras and signs. Instead, it affect the male/female relationship in subtler ways.
27aspenjeromeYou've got some rough ideas working for you here. Basically, your flip-flop at the end is an entirely different issue. If men have it better than women, I don't think it's an offshoot of feminism. Secondly, I don't think you show very well how feminism affects our everyday lives. There aren't a bunch of militant women out there with burning bras and signs. Instead, it affect the male/female relationship in subtler ways.
2/19/2004 c1 PhiloNysh
First of all you have absolutely no evidence to support your argument.
Secondly, you tend to be talking about one thing, and then rampaging about another. There is no argument you follow through. Like you are saying that feminists are bad, but yet women don't have equality? It doesn't make any sense.
I can see what you're saying, but you need to do some research before you even attempt to right an essay like this. Generalisations are not a good way of getting anywhere.
I know that that was just a draft, so I'm just trying to help. You've got a good start, but build on it.
First of all you have absolutely no evidence to support your argument.
Secondly, you tend to be talking about one thing, and then rampaging about another. There is no argument you follow through. Like you are saying that feminists are bad, but yet women don't have equality? It doesn't make any sense.
I can see what you're saying, but you need to do some research before you even attempt to right an essay like this. Generalisations are not a good way of getting anywhere.
I know that that was just a draft, so I'm just trying to help. You've got a good start, but build on it.
2/17/2004 c1 Ocha
Feminism is simply the support and respect of women and their rights. It sounds as if you are a rational feminist. Good gad, one doesn't even have to be a woman to be a feminist, nor does one have to burn their bra for no apparent reason.
It's not feminism you're responding to - you are responding to, as you said, the fools calling themselves feminists who create rediculous protests and make statements that really mean nothing. Please make the distinction, otherwise the idea of feminism will be further perverted into something laughable, and that truly would be a tradgedy.
Feminism is simply the support and respect of women and their rights. It sounds as if you are a rational feminist. Good gad, one doesn't even have to be a woman to be a feminist, nor does one have to burn their bra for no apparent reason.
It's not feminism you're responding to - you are responding to, as you said, the fools calling themselves feminists who create rediculous protests and make statements that really mean nothing. Please make the distinction, otherwise the idea of feminism will be further perverted into something laughable, and that truly would be a tradgedy.
2/17/2004 c1 30Roadside Dryer
Good job! Yes that is annoying but them it's awesome. i mean i wish like writers, singers, rappers..women would be more heard about. If you really thing about it all you hear about these days are male writers (mostly), singers..divas but (justin timberlake) and rappers, (not that i like them. I do wish women were appreated more. I get harassed constantly but two of the guys at my school, (bitch, slut, horny,) In those type of ways women are harassed. Anyway i think i talk to much..either that or i'm completely off topic, (which i constantly do) Anyway good job. Love it.
30Roadside DryerGood job! Yes that is annoying but them it's awesome. i mean i wish like writers, singers, rappers..women would be more heard about. If you really thing about it all you hear about these days are male writers (mostly), singers..divas but (justin timberlake) and rappers, (not that i like them. I do wish women were appreated more. I get harassed constantly but two of the guys at my school, (bitch, slut, horny,) In those type of ways women are harassed. Anyway i think i talk to much..either that or i'm completely off topic, (which i constantly do) Anyway good job. Love it.
2/17/2004 c1 Shuichi-kun
There are some things I agree with you on...the rest I do not. I don't think you understand the meaning of "feminism," and frankly, I don't think many people do. "Feminism" doesn't mean "women should be above men" - rather, it is "women and men should be equal." Feminism is a fight for equality. Some women, I admit, do take feminism to the extreme in the sense that they think men are way below women, but in reality, most feminists just wish for equality. The reason we feminists are fighting so hard? Because things aren't changing enough. They simply aren't. Sure, we can vote, but when will we see the day when women receive equal wages as men? When will we see the day when women in the media aren't all supermodels and sex objects? It is because of these reasons that women are still fighting.
By the way, men can be feminists (believers of sexual equality!) too. My dad is one of them. So please do not insult feminism when that's what men have been doing for the past thousands of years.
There are some things I agree with you on...the rest I do not. I don't think you understand the meaning of "feminism," and frankly, I don't think many people do. "Feminism" doesn't mean "women should be above men" - rather, it is "women and men should be equal." Feminism is a fight for equality. Some women, I admit, do take feminism to the extreme in the sense that they think men are way below women, but in reality, most feminists just wish for equality. The reason we feminists are fighting so hard? Because things aren't changing enough. They simply aren't. Sure, we can vote, but when will we see the day when women receive equal wages as men? When will we see the day when women in the media aren't all supermodels and sex objects? It is because of these reasons that women are still fighting.
By the way, men can be feminists (believers of sexual equality!) too. My dad is one of them. So please do not insult feminism when that's what men have been doing for the past thousands of years.
2/17/2004 c1 doode
I like tottally agree. What many women need to realize is that the original goal for feminisim, is equal rights! That doesn't mean an equal amount of women get a certain job as men. It just means that women have an equal oppertunity.
I am a woman by the way
I like tottally agree. What many women need to realize is that the original goal for feminisim, is equal rights! That doesn't mean an equal amount of women get a certain job as men. It just means that women have an equal oppertunity.
I am a woman by the way
2/17/2004 c1 30g21lto
Interesting way of putting it. I do agree with equality for the sexes, and I think that a lot of women today are trying to put themselves above men. I don't agree with that.
*
I agree with your views on reaching for the "bigger and better" thing. Once equality is gained, what will be next? I think that question is probably part of the internal monologue of every member of a minority - whether females, ethnic and racial minorities, or gays. It's probably partly because, for so long, the minority group has defined itself partly by its repression and persecution at the hands of others. A lot of leaders in the black community nowadays talk about a continuing attitude of victimhood that some african-americans fall into. Being white, I wouldn't know about that. But it falls along the same lines: what now? Actually, I don't think black people *have* achieved equality in our society yet. I guess part of the question of victimhood is whether they really have, and whether racism is still a big factor (yes). And that's probably the way it will be for women: years after most of the goals for the feminist movement have been met, we'll still be seeing sexism everywhere. And it will probably still be everywhere. But we'll have people chiding us for our attitude of victimhood.
*
Anyway, interesting essay. I'd like to see the final draft!
30g21ltoInteresting way of putting it. I do agree with equality for the sexes, and I think that a lot of women today are trying to put themselves above men. I don't agree with that.
*
I agree with your views on reaching for the "bigger and better" thing. Once equality is gained, what will be next? I think that question is probably part of the internal monologue of every member of a minority - whether females, ethnic and racial minorities, or gays. It's probably partly because, for so long, the minority group has defined itself partly by its repression and persecution at the hands of others. A lot of leaders in the black community nowadays talk about a continuing attitude of victimhood that some african-americans fall into. Being white, I wouldn't know about that. But it falls along the same lines: what now? Actually, I don't think black people *have* achieved equality in our society yet. I guess part of the question of victimhood is whether they really have, and whether racism is still a big factor (yes). And that's probably the way it will be for women: years after most of the goals for the feminist movement have been met, we'll still be seeing sexism everywhere. And it will probably still be everywhere. But we'll have people chiding us for our attitude of victimhood.
*
Anyway, interesting essay. I'd like to see the final draft!
2/17/2004 c1 jess
perhaps in your part of the world, feminism is still strong.
though in nz, such feminism acts are a thing of the past.
not all women use this as the axis of their argument.
there are women who climb up their ladder of success purely by talent,
skill and hard-work.
though in some cases, there are still women who cling onto this
weaky backed "feminism-reason" to get to their current status. even so, you can
only go so far being suported by this bias reason.
anyways
may the life of a professional woman be equal to that of a man
pay, conditions & all.
perhaps in your part of the world, feminism is still strong.
though in nz, such feminism acts are a thing of the past.
not all women use this as the axis of their argument.
there are women who climb up their ladder of success purely by talent,
skill and hard-work.
though in some cases, there are still women who cling onto this
weaky backed "feminism-reason" to get to their current status. even so, you can
only go so far being suported by this bias reason.
anyways
may the life of a professional woman be equal to that of a man
pay, conditions & all.
2/17/2004 c1 Carolina.Scribe
BRAVO! YOU GO KAITLYN!
Finally someone else who is getting sick of all these feminists pushing their feminism onto the rest of us. I completely and utterly agree. I have a point of my own to make, as well. Nowadays, the whole feminist thing is hurting those women who never had a problem with the way things were in the first place.
Nowadays its hard to find a guy who will be a gentlemen because they automatically throw the feminist card into our faces.
Don't they understand? Not all women want to have a career. I know some girl who want to be housewives instead of a working woman.
I agree that the whole thing is getting out of control. *gets of milk crate*
BRAVO! YOU GO KAITLYN!
Finally someone else who is getting sick of all these feminists pushing their feminism onto the rest of us. I completely and utterly agree. I have a point of my own to make, as well. Nowadays, the whole feminist thing is hurting those women who never had a problem with the way things were in the first place.
Nowadays its hard to find a guy who will be a gentlemen because they automatically throw the feminist card into our faces.
Don't they understand? Not all women want to have a career. I know some girl who want to be housewives instead of a working woman.
I agree that the whole thing is getting out of control. *gets of milk crate*
2/17/2004 c1 mrs.shigwa.cobain
This is too big a topic for me to just write off with "good job, keep writing" But I really don't have the time right now to give all of my comments (yep, i have a big mouth, and i'm opinionated) So, I'm not signing in now so that I can come back later a review again, with full comments. Although, I do agree with a lot of what you said.
Ok, til later
Shigwa
This is too big a topic for me to just write off with "good job, keep writing" But I really don't have the time right now to give all of my comments (yep, i have a big mouth, and i'm opinionated) So, I'm not signing in now so that I can come back later a review again, with full comments. Although, I do agree with a lot of what you said.
Ok, til later
Shigwa
2/16/2004 c1 7neunundneunzig
Partially agreed; There are things that men can do decisively better than women just as there are things women can do decisively better than men. Since sex discrimination has dropped significantly since its high point, so have the number of feminists. There will always be the select few individuals that think that men and women have yet to be treated equally based on the falsity that anything men can do women can also do, but what can you do? Again, they are few.
Racial discrimination, of course, is another story. Since its high point, racism hasn't decreased nearly as much as sex discrimination, and as a result, we have a bunch of whiny minorities bitching to every white person they see about being fascist pigs that don't accept people of color.
Slight exaggeration, but still, sadly, we haven't seen the expected decrease in racism as we have in feminism. I doubt it will ever change, especially with programs like affirmative action, which merely emphasizes the difference among the races.
Honestly, I think humans are too smart for their own good. Our minds are developed enough to have the feelings that make us unique and thus have complexes as well, but too underdeveloped to see the insignificance in situations when necessary. The biggest problem we have is our inability to see past the details at the big picture. We do things because people before us did things and even if we wanted to, we couldn't change it because society is brutal.
Life sucks, man. I'm going to shut up.
7neunundneunzigPartially agreed; There are things that men can do decisively better than women just as there are things women can do decisively better than men. Since sex discrimination has dropped significantly since its high point, so have the number of feminists. There will always be the select few individuals that think that men and women have yet to be treated equally based on the falsity that anything men can do women can also do, but what can you do? Again, they are few.
Racial discrimination, of course, is another story. Since its high point, racism hasn't decreased nearly as much as sex discrimination, and as a result, we have a bunch of whiny minorities bitching to every white person they see about being fascist pigs that don't accept people of color.
Slight exaggeration, but still, sadly, we haven't seen the expected decrease in racism as we have in feminism. I doubt it will ever change, especially with programs like affirmative action, which merely emphasizes the difference among the races.
Honestly, I think humans are too smart for their own good. Our minds are developed enough to have the feelings that make us unique and thus have complexes as well, but too underdeveloped to see the insignificance in situations when necessary. The biggest problem we have is our inability to see past the details at the big picture. We do things because people before us did things and even if we wanted to, we couldn't change it because society is brutal.
Life sucks, man. I'm going to shut up.