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for Logical Debasement of a Christian God

1/31/2008 c1 la petite tourne-sol
If you don't mind me flaming your story, I'm just warning you, I've read the Bible, and know the answers to some of your questions. Several times you contradicted yourself.

First, I'm gonna start with the free will and love part: Actually, if God is all-powerful, then, doesn't that make Him, all-powerful? Sorry, it's just, at first, you said that he IS all powerful, then you were saying He doesn't have the power to make us love Him? Yes, he could force us to love Him and worship Him, but, it wouldn't be as genuine a love. God could choose to tell us what to do, but, would you be happy? I wouldn't. I'm happy to serve, but, I prefer serving Him out of love, knowing that, when he asks me to do something, He asks me with love.

Now the next part, about Adam and Eve: Yes, He gave us free will. Already discussed that part. The Savior? To save us from sin. That's correct, the Messiah was sent to rid us of sin, because God cannot be in the presence of sin. But, He loves us, so He WANTS to be with us. So, he sent his only Son, Jesus Christ, or Immanuel the Messiah, the pure one, to take on human form, teach us of how we are supposed to live, then go to the cross to die, taking all our sins upon Himself. Then, He went to hell, destroyed the devil, took back the power over sin, death, and earth that God gave us in the beginning. He was ressurected and gave those who believe in Him the gift of the Holy Spirit, and gave us that power that He took back from the devil.

As for killing Himself, when Jesus came to earth, he was HUMAN. He did miracles by having a very strong relationship with God. He referred to Himself oftentimes as the SON OF MAN. He was claming the humaness by saying that, in my opinion. Therefore, God didn't kill himself. SACRIFICE is different then suicide. When God decided that he would send a sacrifice, Jesus volunteered to serve, and offered to go and die when the time was right. Remember, God is all knowing, therefore knew that humans would backfire. He WANTED to show His love and decided that what would be a more perfect way, than to send His ONLY SON, mind you, to die for us.

Another thing, since God cannot be in the presence of sin, He Himself cannot sin. Therefore, it COULDN'T have been suicide, because is sin. And, actually, it was us who killed Christ. Our sin. Not God. Yes, God sent Him, but, Judas betrayed Him, the Jewish leaders PLANNED the death, He was whipped by Roman officials, and was hung on that cross by Roman officials.

Why would wanting love be selfish? Yes, seeking attention is selfish. God loves to be loved, and guess what? He deserves to be loved, the creator of us and all things. Without Him, we wouldn't exist.

I might have misunderstood you, but God isn't crying out for help. He's weeping because of how many people won't let Him help them.

Jesus actually tells a story similar to yours. There was a man, who had two sons. The father gave His two sons their inheritance, and one stayed and helped farm, and EARNED his half. The other one went off, and wasted every drop of the money on partying and women and wine. Soon, the partying son's money ran out. He was starving, thirsty, and regretted leaving his father. So he went back to his father, expecting his father to turn him away. But when he got there, his father saw him, ran to him, and hugged him, He told him that he forgave him, and not only that, but, his father went along and prepared a feast because his son had returned. Pretty amazing, right?

Well, I hope this has helped clear a few things up. You did write this well, though I disagree, and several of your facts were wrongly used.
1/17/2008 c1 BlackPetal
First off, let me begin this review off with by saying that I am a Christian. Knowing that, my review is going to be from a Christian perspective.

I only had to read your first paragraph before I was met with your first error. The Bible does not say why God created us directly and I would be a fool to try and tell you what I think the reason is when I don’t know for sure; however, I CAN say that it’s quite impudent of you to deem God’s creations as ‘creative’ when you yourself don’t know why God created us or the world we live in either (this is, of course, assuming that you believe in his existence).

Now to answer the question in the same paragraph about free will, it’s all quite simple. God said that he would make us in the likeness of his and the angels’ image; both of which, mind you, have free will. And while, granted, he probably COULD have designed us as mindless robots with the single intent of just worshipping him, you must keep in mind that he chose not to do that. For you to say that “some things cannot be forced no matter how much power you have” is merely based upon ideas and things you yourself know for a fact. You were not there when God decided to create the world that we know of and I find it very impertinent of you to arrogantly assume something such as that when all you’re basing your opinion off of is a guess.

Third paragraph down, your lack of knowledge about the Bible and what it means became even more obvious to me when you stated “…so that he can be loved…” when referring to Adam and Eve. Again, you are merely making assumptions on something that you clearly don’t know much about. And, because of that, I obviously must remind you that the angels’ were here LONG before we were ever thought of; knowing that, who are you to say that he created the first man and woman “so that he can be loved” when he had an infinite number of angels’ who already loved him? God is not some narcissistic being who needs constant reminders of just how great he is; for you to try and make him out to be one is not only ignorant but highly insulting to those of us who know him.

Continuing with the third paragraph, I must say that you are, once again, incorrect. When God made us, we were perfect. We had no flaws at that time. It was Satan who deceptively managed to coax Eve into disobeying God and doing the one thing that he had permitted her and Adam not to do. He did not initially create us with “the ability to make mistakes and faulty reasoning” because man was PERFECT from the start. It was when sin came into the picture that our eyes became unveiled to the other side (i.e. evil) and it was then, and only then, that “the ability to make mistakes and faulty reasoning” started.

By now, I’ve come to the conclusion that you undoubtedly don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to Christianity (at least, actual Christianity and not the many denominations that have broken off from the true form). Next paragraph; God cannot lie. Now, if you were to actually read and understand the Bible, you’d know that because of this, he cannot simply go back on his word because that goes against his nature. He told Adam that the day he ate of the forbidden fruit, he would die. Adam did not know that God did not mean literally but spiritually (though it was literal in a sense as well; the body started to deteriorate, hence the various ailments we now have and eventual death). The spirit born in all of us was severed from the Lord and there was no way other way from it regaining its connection unless it was restored. How was it restored? By Jesus. The animal sacrifices that you speak of were just a prelude to Christ’s sacrifice. It was like a preview of what was to come; Christ would be sacrificed just like the pure and unblemished animals were; yet, unlike the animals, Christ would be the ultimate sacrifice. He would be EVERYONE’S sacrifice. No one else could do it because they were all tainted with the stain of sin; Jesus was the only perfect human alive who didn’t have that imperfect seal. He was created from the spirit and not from the conventional way by sperm and egg. And it was not a matter of forgiveness, my friend; it was a matter of redeeming us back to the way we were (or, at least, partially) in order to give us that opportunity to try and make it into heaven once again. So, yes, the sacrifice was necessary or else you and I both wouldn’t have the option of getting into heaven like we do.

To finish, I find I must point out the misconception lots of people have about the ‘you shall not kill’ thing. I don’t know if it’s because of misprints or what, but the correct translation is ‘you shall not murder’. Murder and killing are two different things, so your whole argument on that becomes null and void.

I do not delude myself into thinking that you will not try and retaliate by pointing out the flaws you feel I’ve left in this argument. Regardless of whether you respond or not, though, I am content with knowing that I did the best I could do by arguing some of the false points you were trying to make in your essay. I know that there are many people in this world who do not fully believe in God, yet I do what I can to try and shed the blind views they have. At times, it may not feel like enough, yet I do what I can to try and convince people of God’s existence.
11/18/2006 c1 25Bitter Irony
An interesting read. I'm not going to argue religion with you, as nothing I could say would change your mind and nothing you could say will change mine, but I did find a few small holes in logic that a good rewriting could cure. Overall, this essay was very well written, but a few lines made me snicker to myself:

The funniest one to hear coming from a self-professed physics know-it-all: "At some point in time (whatever that word would mean to such a being) this God decides to become creative." Time is not independent of space: it follows that, if Christians believe that God created space, they also believe he created time, and that there was no time before the world existed.

"Now why would it want to create other beings? To answer this we must ask another question: why would he give such beings free will." Beg pardon? Why must the second and apparently unrelated question be answered before the first and fairly straight-forward one? The answer Christians give to the first is that it is in God's nature to create (Universe, Atoms, Laws of Physics, etc).

[Note, this is Christian beliefs I'm talking about: I'm more on the liberal side of the road here. Whoever laid down the Laws of Physics that lead to the Big Bang had no need to "create" living creatures, seeing as evolution was apparently the natural course it would have taken anyway. I suppose this makes me more of a Theist of some sort. Never mind that now. :-)]

"the great story of Adam and Eve" The vast majority of Christians I know are NOT Fundamentalist, so this applies only to those that are. Just an important thing to keep in mind when writing anti-christian essays is that there are so many branches of Christianity, from the rather conservative born-agains to the midstream Catholics and some outright liberal nn-demoninationalists.

Most of your agruments in the following sections make sense, though don't let any Fundamentalists know I said that. :-)

So overall: well written,interesting, and persuasive (except for the fact that religion is just one of those things absolutely no one will change their mind on, ever, even if God Itself appeard and gave all the details). I remain laughing over the "Some point in time comment", though not hostilely in any way.

~Bitter Irony
11/12/2006 c1 7dreamerdoll
You recommended that I read this after you read my own essay on Christianity. I must say, I quite agree; I did quite enjoy this essay, and as an atheist found it quite interesting. I agree with the points you made, and commend you for your genius writing.

Terrific job!

Victoria
8/29/2006 c1 15Timur
An interesting read. I can't help but wonder why your emphsis is on sacrifice when love seems to be the key to everything.

The purpose of teaching sacrifice is two fold. The first is it helps us to forgive ourselves. Secondly it helps us to grow. If a child breaks a window and you just pay for it without ever confronting the child, the child learns nothing. So if you think about it, sacrifice is really God trying to get us to learn from our mistakes.

It goes along the same lines of 'if we have to pay for something, we are less likely to abuse it.'

-

Now, as far as I can tell, the problem is that you are coming form the stand point that love is the purpose of creation.

I disagree with you that love is the purpose of creation. Love for loves own sake is pointless.

Love lets us feel happy. When we love someone, it allows us to enter into a relationship with them, and from that relationship joy can be produced. So in reality the true bottom line isn't love, but rather happiness.

Beyond this, when we feel loved, we are happy. The more love we recieve, the happier we are. We just suck it up.

God is no different. It is why He needs us. I leave it at that and we can go from there if you want on a different thread.

-

What confuses me is that you aren't just coming out and saying "Jesus didn't come to die, but rather to teach us to love."

If you think about it, that just makes more sense then the synopsis you posted.

If in the fall we lost love, one would think the Messiah's job would be to help restore it. It goes along with his two comandments (Love your neighbors and love God.)
6/24/2006 c1 1apathycrusades
Speaking from a perspective of a "believer", if you will, I admit that it seems somewhat odd to think that God has foreknowledge of all things, included thus that we sin, not by necessity, but by our own will. But if God knows that a man is going to sin, is it then necessary that he should sin? Wouldn't it counter God Himself to know, then to be proven wrong? But if it's necessary, there's no choice of the will in sinning. It's all an illusion of free will when really, I suppose, God would be sadistic. Give us will, watch us sin, make us repent. For what? So He can experience love? Since when does He -need- love? It seems to me to be more of an "ego boost". Watch ME sacrifice MYSELF, thank ME for it, pray to ME, worship ME...because I saved you from the sins I knew you would commit...and did nothing to stop.

However, I have to say that I disagree on the point of sacrifice not being a representation of love. This magnitude of sacrifice, the humiliation, the pain, etc, this giving of one's life-which is, really, the greatest thing a man could give to another, his life, his future. Willingly, no less. Proves to us what lengths God would go to for us. What other sacrifice could He have made for US to prove His love? Anything else would seem disingenuous, considering how his martyrs have died in His name. To sacrifice Himself, to lower Himself to OUR level, to suffer through the physical, emotional maladies that people suffer...humanizing Himself in such a manner, proves His love. His desire to understand us, to empathize.

Argumentatively, God knew He would return to Heaven. He knew that the state was only temporary. But the effort must still be acknowledged as something extraordinary.

I don't believe that the crucifixion was suicide. Christ did not, after all, nail himself to the cross. He simply did nothing to stop the procession of events. That, being suicide in its most tangible sense.

However, God's knowledge is infinite. He must have known what would occur. In fact, some evidence suggests Christ orchestrated the entire affair. Quite a showoff. In that case, it seems he did cause his own death...using His own people as pawns. This vast level of manipulation...is not conducive to our classic view of a loving Father figure. It's nearly malicious.

As it were, I'm afraid I have nothing more to add tonight, I apologize for the extended review (as it seems I have walked in circles), and I hope my ramblings did not bore you intensely.

-Libra

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